As his soccer underdog story arrives in theaters, Next Goal Wins director Taika Waititi tells Leo Koziol about his love of rugby, using his Indigenous influence in Hollywood, and the realities of dating in a small town.
I think the idea of the inclusiveness of the Pacific is a big part. It’s a real special thing for me to embrace the idea that we’re all connected and there should be no separation. We’re all one people.
—Taika Waititi
His feel-good sports comedy Next Goal Wins has had a long journey to cinemas thanks to a certain pandemic, but Taika Waititi has had an even longer road to his success. And I mean “road” singularly and literally: there is one road running through Raukokore, the small East Coast village on the North Island of Aotearoa New Zealand where Waititi spent many of his early years, and which inspired his Oscar-nominated short Two Cars, One Night and his 2010 feature, Boy. It’s easy to overlook this when you’re gawking at his Instagram.
A quick disclaimer: Two Cars, One Night screened back in 2005 at the inaugural Wairoa Māori Film Festival, which I founded. Wairoa is the nearest city to my ancestral village, Nūhaka, where I still live, and is located on the same New Zealand coast as Raukokore. We are both “coasties” born and raised and I know deeply the complex journey he is on. It’s been fascinating to watch Waititi’s star rise by telling both local and international stories, with regular collaborators.
His unique flavor of melancholic humor has led Waititi (Te Whānau-ā-Apanui) through the Sundance Institute support system and far beyond his dreams: two Thor films (Ragnarok and Love and Thunder); two spin-off television series from the vampire roommate comedy he created with Jemaine Clement, What We Do in the Shadows. He’s also found success in adaptations: Hunt for the Wilderpeople, based on a novel by eccentric New Zealand outdoorsman Barry Crump, and the Oscar-winning Jojo Rabbit, transformed from Christine Leunen’s WWII-era book, Caging Skies, to include a controversial invisible “friend” (Waititi himself, in satirical fancy-dress as the Führer).
Next, he’ll direct a screen version of Kazuo Ishiguro’s novel Klara and the Sun, but Waititi’s current film in cinemas is adapted from the documentary of the same name. Next Goal Wins follows the (mostly) real-life story of an underdog soccer team in American Samoa and their against-the-odds Dutch American coach, Thomas Rongen (played by Michael Fassbender). The playful filmmaker has added some fictional elements—casting himself as yet another man of God after his Wilderpeople vicar—but has stayed true to the spirit and, crucially, the characters of Next Goal Wins. These include the team’s enthusiastic coach, Tavita (Oscar Kightley) and their fa’afafine star-player, Jaiyah Saelua (Kaimana), the first openly trans woman to compete in a FIFA world cup qualifying match.
It is a Pacific homecoming of sorts for Waititi. Though set in American Samoa, Next Goal Wins was filmed in Hawaii. Alongside several Hollywood names (Elisabeth Moss, Will Arnett), Waititi’s artist friends also appear, including his Our Flag Means Death love interest Rhys Darby, Māori actress and director Rachel House, and Kightley and fellow Samoan New Zealander Dave Fane, both wildly popular New Zealand comedy figures (with several features of their own notched up). Rising stars in the cast include Beulah Koale and Talk to Me’s Chris Alosio.
Alongside other Letterboxd members, I was at the film’s TIFF premiere, where Waititi punched the microphone in his hare-brained improv style, then welcomed local Indigenous elder Pauline Shirt to introduce the film in her birth language, also in signature Waititi style. It’s indicative of his duality, of the many worlds he walks in. A Māori-Jewish lad balancing colonization and commerce, one minute peacocking at the Met Gala, the next working with Sterlin Harjo on the groundbreaking Oklahoma-set series Reservation Dogs.
We spoke last month, before the SAG-AFTRA strike was lifted, but just after the New Zealand general election (which swung right), the Australian Indigenous Voice referendum (which was voted down) and a thrilling, all-important Rugby World Cup semi-final showdown between the New Zealand All Blacks and Ireland (which New Zealand won).
How’s your head, bro? Last night was a big game.
Taika Waititi: Are you trying to come at me? Are you trying to come at me with the old rugby? I love rugby. I love rugby more than you. No, Saturday was amazing, bro. Yeah, obviously we beat Ireland. I don’t know if anyone here is from Ireland, but that’s what we did. And yeah, both of our countries [New Zealand and Ireland] have been colonized pretty hard, so it’s painful to have to beat another one of our brothers, but we’re really happy with the win.
One of your film’s stars, Oscar Kightley, has been hosting the Rugby World Cup on Islands show in Samoa. One of the things I want to [touch on] is just how important Polynesian players are to global sports like rugby, even while you’re telling a story in Next Goal Wins about soccer underdogs. What would you like to say about Pacific and Polynesian sporting excellence?
I can only talk from the perspective of rugby. It’s my favorite game in the world. I was just in Paris watching New Zealand versus Ireland. We all have to accept and embrace that the reason our teams are so good is because of Polynesians. It’s just something special about the way that we approach the game. We have talent no matter what the background is. In different countries, like in Australia, it’s the private-school boys’ game. In the UK, it’s the same. In New Zealand and South Africa, [rugby is] a poor people’s game.
So in New Zealand, no matter your background, that’s what we’re good at. We’re good at that sport because no matter your background, that’s what we play. I think that’s why we have that talent and I think that’s why we have that talent in Polynesia. Seeing Fiji go through to that quarter-final with England was incredible. To see a team I’ve loved for so many years hold their own against the colonizers, it’s really special. And my big hope now after seeing these quarter-finals, is that it’s a New Zealand and England final.
I don’t think Hollywood’s going to change anytime, in all honesty. I think we have to do it ourselves.
—Taika Waititi
I think the last time I remember hanging out with you, you had just made Boy and you were still struggling to pay your rent. How’s the rental situation these days?
Still struggling. Still struggling, just more money, more problems. No, I think I was probably staying on Bird Runningwater’s couch at the time in LA and still to this day, the most comfortable couch I’ve ever stayed on. I think the good thing about coming into a career or something later on in life, is that you get used to being poor for 35 years and are always ready to go back.
In Montréal, I saw your collaborator Sterlin Harjo and he said for the first time ever, he didn’t have to beg, borrow or steal to get there.
Yeah, well, we all grew up the same way. With Reservation Dogs, that’s the reason that show exists is because Sterlin and I were talking about our upbringings and how we come from completely different sides of the world, but we had very similar upbringings.
So seriously, talking with you as a Native creative who has achieved so much on the world stage, is this real or do you think it’s just a dream?
What, from the beginning to here? Yeah, it is somewhat a dream. I mean, I grew up in a town of 600 people and as you know, when you grow up in this really small town, the first question you ask someone at a party, if you’re interested in them is, “Who’s your grandmother?” and then they go, “Oh, blah, blah, blah,” and you go, “Oh. Have a good night, cuz...” But to go from a tiny little place, all the way to here, to whatever city I’m in... Oh, London… Yeah, and just to be [here]...
This is my eighth movie? What movie is this? Eighth film? Next Goal Wins was my eighth movie. Even just to be able to make one movie when I was young, it felt like an achievement and success in its own right, but eight movies in, I feel really good about that. As you know, New Zealanders are very humble, too humble, actually. Humble to a fault. So we never like to celebrate ourselves, but eight movies is pretty good.
At your TIFF premiere, the crowd really got into the sports scenes. It really felt like you were there watching the game. This being your first sports film, what were you most nervous about, and most wanting to get right in the coverage of the game itself?
The thing I was most nervous about was making soccer look good on film, because I’d watched a lot of films about… football. The name is football, otherwise I’m going to get [in trouble]. I’m in London. I'm getting side looks, side-eye already. But yeah, it’s a film about football and I’ve watched a lot of these films about football, and it never looks exciting on screen. So that was one of the main things, was to try and make this sport [exciting].
We’ve all watched it and it’s like, ‘wow, there’s a lot of waiting around for something to happen’. It’s a game with a lot of people with a lot of skill, but there’s a lot of waiting. For me that was the main thing: “how do we get this game, especially a game about the worst football team in the world, how do we get this to look exciting?” Because it’s a slow game to watch as an outsider, but then with one of the worst teams in the world, it’s even slower. To make that look exciting was a big part for me.
You grew up Māori in Aotearoa New Zealand and have lived in Hawaii, so you have lots of connections to Polynesia. This film itself is specifically Samoan. What did you learn about Samoan culture, making this film, that you didn’t know before?
That I didn’t know before? I think what I learned was that the connection between Samoa and Aotearoa goes way deeper than I ever imagined, or what I was ever taught. I was taught—we all know—Hawaii and New Zealand, we’ve got that really deep connection. The language is probably the closest that you’ll ever find in the Polynesian Triangle.
I always thought in my head that Samoan culture or the Samoan language was really different. The culture’s different. But then from going to Samoa and also having all my friends come in and just hanging out in a really deep and meaningful way, I just realized, ‘oh, we’re all from the same place. We share the same history, the same mythology’. I think the idea of the inclusiveness of the Pacific is a big part. It’s a real special thing for me to embrace the idea that we’re all connected and there should be no separation. We’re all one people.
Next Goal Wins walks a really fine line of not being a film about “happy Natives” and their white savior. How did Oscar Kightley and Dave Fane and your other collaborators help you get the tone right in your comedy? Particularly with Polynesian humor, there’s a self-mocking nature that plays a fine balance.
Yeah, well, in the west it’s not cool to mock now. Finally, it’s not cool to mock Indigenous people or other cultures and minorities. But our thing, as you know, is that it’s part of our humor. We’re self-deprecating and we like to poke fun at ourselves and everyone else.
To have Oscar and Dave there as two touchstones for me in the making of a film, I’ve worked with these guys for so many years and just to have my friends with me was a really special thing, and I felt like I couldn’t go wrong there. Oscar is one of my favorite friends and also one of the greatest writers to come out of New Zealand. Dave as well is a great performer, to have those guys there to just give me advice and to guide me along the way [was a special thing].
And you got to make the film in a Polynesian paradise.
We got to shoot in Hawaii.
Yeah, it is somewhat a dream. I mean, I grew up in a town of 600 people... Even just to be able to make one movie when I was young, it felt like an achievement and success in its own right, but eight movies in, I feel really good about that.
—Taika Waititi
Taika, you are a senior statesman in native filmmaking. You’ve learned the system—
—I’m not senior? You say senior. What does that mean?
You’re not junior anymore, bro. Okay, you’re a middle-senior statesman in Native filmmaking. You’ve learned the system and you’re changing things. You put so much unseen time and effort into supporting other Native filmmakers so that their voices get a go. From Sterlin Harjo to Billy Luther to Danis Goulet and to our friends back home. What does that work look like on a practical level? Are you reading their scripts, teaching the tricks of the system, or is it just lending your name as a producer? What’s most meaningful to you?
I think at the base level, lending my name as a producer and EPing [executive producing] things, because I think ‘if I can get something made, that’s the biggest step’. With Reservation Dogs, it was not my [culture]. That’s not my culture. I’ve got an affinity and a brotherhood with Sterlin and Native Americans because I grew up with them as a filmmaker, but I’m not going to come in and tell them how to make films or TV shows or tell them how to tell their stories.
The biggest effect I could have, or the biggest help I could lend them, is just to give my name and to get the show made, and take it to a studio—FX—and get the show made. And then let Sterlin take over from there. It’s also easier for me because I don’t have to do too much work [laughs] but that’s probably the best use of my influence.
Does Hollywood need to change or do we just make our own Pollywood or our own Nativewood?
I don’t think Hollywood’s going to change anytime, in all honesty. I think we have to do it ourselves. There’ll be a certain degree of tokenism that comes with wanting to be attached to our stories and be seen to be supporting our stories. But I think for real change and for real stories to happen, we have to keep [it] in our hands [and] we have to do it ourselves.
Final question: We’ve just had an election here in New Zealand [in which a potential coalition government partner wants a referendum on the country’s founding document]. And of course the Voice vote just happened in Australia. If they take the Treaty of Waitangi away in a referendum, do you think we should take the haka away from the All Blacks?
If they take the Treaty of Waitangi away in a referendum? It can’t happen. Leo, it can’t happen, you know as well as I do. What happened in Australia was terrible. Absolutely shocking and terrible and embarrassing. But we’re too strong in New Zealand. We won’t let that happen.
Well, kia kaha [stay strong], Taika, keep doing what you are doing and thanks so much for your time.
Thanks Leo, take care. See you mate.
‘Next Goal Wins’ opens in US cinemas on November 17, NZ December 7, UK December 29, and Australia on 1 January 2024, via Searchlight. The Rugby World Cup 2023 concluded on October 28 with South Africa’s Springboks beating the New Zealand All Blacks 12-11.
